Response To Musictchr

I have just been told that musictchr posted this article in response to a post by Bernicer.
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2009/09/free-speech-in-online-communities-the-delusion-of-entitlement/

The gist of this article is that there is NO entitlement to free speech in the online forum community. When you join a forum you are there as the invited guest of the forum owner.

Rhonda! Rhonda!! Did all of my PMs to you NOT get through? I, and probably all of my Susahumor mates, have never believed that there should not be rules at SBFII. We understand that. As I told you often enough, my complaint was the fact that your rules there are not fairly or equally applied to everyone. There is not a shadow of doubt that there are members there who get away with posts that other members have been severely sanctioned over. The most glaring example was the post by CanadianBill in regard to the events of 7-18 to 7-21, 2010. In that post claims were made that DJGers and others were trying to take over the forum. Even though this was debunked later; in fact by YOUR administrator. No sanctions were given to CB, and no apology EVER came forth.

I am sure you recall the thread where I was mercilessly baited, over and over. In fact, it was the worst thing EVER said to me on a forum. I notified the moderators over and over to remove the posts--TO NO AVAIL! In fact, I was the one who ended up being sanctioned!

Recently, my alter ego, Tomfinn, was discovered on your forum and he was banned after it was discovered that he was me! Need I remind you that I know of 2 other members there who did the exact same thing, your admins. knew about it and did nothing. One, in fact, is a revered member there now.

You know I could give many other instances of unfair and unequal treatment there. Your forum has far fewer posters than it did in the early days. Do you not wonder why that is?? Bernicer certainly tried to tell you. Unfortunately, no one in authority there is interested in listening.

I think the double standard and control-freak mods are what disturb me most about that forum.

It is like I was speaking a foreign language, I really was trying to explain why people do not participate. Aw well, they are only hurting themselves.

Well of course it all depends on who made the post. If it is someone useful to them, like someone who lives near Susan, makes good videos, flies over to see Susan and write reports and post pictures or is known by the team - they can post whatever they want. Everyone else is bound by the so called 'rules'.

However, judging by the numbers of actual regular posters, most people are well aware of this situation and don't bother getting involved anymore and just lurk. That's why its become so boring. Its not a forum, its an information source.

I personally don't care about the site anymore as I can freely discuss all things Susan here, have a lot of fun and interaction and get plenty of information too. Many thanks to DJG!

Emmylou wrote:

Well of course it all depends on who made the post. If it is someone useful to them, like someone who lives near Susan, makes good videos, flies over to see Susan and write reports and post pictures or is known by the team - they can post whatever they want. Everyone else is bound by the so called 'rules'.

However, judging by the numbers of actual regular posters, most people are well aware of this situation and don't bother getting involved anymore and just lurk. That's why its become so boring. Its not a forum, its an information source.

I personally don't care about the site anymore as I can freely discuss all things Susan here, have a lot of fun and interaction and get plenty of information too. Many thanks to DJG!

I had been a member of SBFII since late June, 2009, one of the earliest members. I was not a member of the blog but I was an avid reader of it since my love for Susan Boyle's singing started the day after the audition. In the beginning there was a diversity of people there. Good writers, and a number of creative people. There was a distinct life, fervor, and enthusiasm to the forum. Then, over time, the heavy handed moderating took over. Go read the old threads from 2009. Many have names of members that were banned. There are many names there that you remember, but they have all disappeared. I found this forum in late 2010. FINALLY---- FREEEEDOM! The breath of fresh air! DJG is responsible for that, and he was one of the first creative members there thrown out. I have always said, and still do, SBFII does a tremendous job in bringing all news Susan to the forefront. Unfortunately, as far as their forum goes, they have helped to lessen the free exchange of ideas, much to the detriment of the place.

I am still a member THERE but hardly ever post because the regular posters have their own little cafe clutch going on - oohing and ahing and gushing over everything with one another. Many fans have been patently aggressive in their pursuit of Susan, invaded her privacy, or on the 'forum' they even try to make out that something that happened in regards to Susan did not happen if they wish it didn't, such as Susans nervousness on DWTS.

They must think people are stupid if they think we can't see what's going on. They must have some hidden agenda to ensure the forum never implies anything is ever wrong with Susan, her career, her team. They are downright hysterical about it because they don't want to lose the connection with her team. It isn't about attracting new fans to the site or making the place an enjoyable place to interact - it's about maintaining that exclusivity with Susans team and therefore, their potential to get to Susan. That's why they coddle the obsessive fans - they are aggressive and obsessed enough to go to Susan to feed their addiction for her and pass on whatever info they get to like-minded fans whose only real motive is getting a Susan fix regardless of how they look, act or its impact on Susan.

That's what I see going in that strange, strange place.

---

A citation from the same article:

If you want to build a cool community, it’s wise to be fair and reasonable. If you behave abusively toward your own community, you’ll have bigger problems to deal with.

SBFII is an information site...and that is all that it is. It started out well, but with heavy handed and unfair moderation, it quickly began its downward spiral. It is not a forum, valid discussion is not allowed and it is NOT a fan-owned site, as some still like to think.

pancake wrote:

SBFII is an information site...and that is all that it is. It started out well, but with heavy handed and unfair moderation, it quickly began its downward spiral. It is not a forum, valid discussion is not allowed and it is NOT a fan-owned site, as some still like to think.

I agree Pancake- EW is a tightly controlled information site- controlled by an exclusive clique that is in direct contact with Susan's team. The so-called discussions about Susan or anything else have to reflect what those are suppose to believe about Susan and her pedestal. No constructive criticism, no thinking outside the box, no creativity whatsoever

I have nothing to say, just wanted to see if the number of guests suddenly increased! They're only coming to see our groovy new banner!

I love the new banner! Hurrah!!!
I especially like the picture of DJG towers! Just the place to boil up entrails...

Someone said in a post if we don't like things just walk away. I didn't post but I wanted to say, "You can't have participation if people walk away."

Susan would say, "Stop this foolishness, blame no one else for your problems."

bernicer wrote:

Someone said in a post if we don't like things just walk away. I didn't post but I wanted to say, "You can't have participation if people walk away."

But then some of them would have nothing to say!

With what is being discussed at SBFII, is it any wonder why I opened up a thread there about the weather??? One of the only safe topics there......unless you report there is a snow storm occurring in Blackburn!

TxTammy wrote:

Susan would say, "Stop this foolishness, blame no one else for your problems."

Susan looks adorable.....

I think this is what Susan may well really think about all this! (Should get me into more trouble again no doubt! ).

We at Susahumor have the perfect moderator for you guys at SBFII....................DJG!

---

I really wish more people had the courage to join us here, where freespeak and individual responsability reign, almost without moderation...

I can assure you that the Guest Forum is not a perfect mirror of the forum's inside, which is fun, reflections, exchange of opinions, and most of all admiration for Susan and her music (but not idolization!!)...
OK, and some ranting...

Basically my only interest in that other forum is about what it used to be: it's where it all started, it was also my forum until it was more or less hijacked, in a sequence of what I consider missed occasions...

I joined here because I found a forum that supported Susan Boyle AND which validated that I wasn't the only one going crazy thinking "This is not right!" when reading about and seeing the rather bizarre behavior exhibited by certain persons THERE. There is a lot of humor here simply because it is generated by observing individuals who exhibit what, by the usually accepted standards of behavior in society, is abnormal and extreme, and then discussing same. It appeared to me there were several individuals who naturally formed groups who engaged in similar acts and who supported one another. Thus, the excessive behavior became the norm in their own eyes and one major purpose of the forum evolved in which these people were supported.

The people on another Susan Boyle site are not so much attacked here as exposed for a number of reasons; their duplicity, invasion of Susans privacy, excessive behavior, etc. It is clear that some fans want a real relationship with Susan for whatever reason and have endeavored to be as obvious to her as possible in order to see her and get her attention and interaction. In their minds, a fantasy exists where Susan is a real part of their life and they attempt to make this happen. The more it doesn't work, the more they pursue her, although such opportunities are becoming increasingly limited. Others seem to enjoy the status that knowing Susan Boyle personally gives them. Having said this, there are members there who just want to express their appreciation of Susans music and Susan and see what she's up to - like me. There's also nothing wrong with fans wanting to meet Susan - there isn't anything inappropriate about that at all in my opinion. I'd like to meet her one day too, but I don't need to see her repeatedly.

I was not involved in any of the previous sinister goings on on the other site as I was a casual member who only looked at and posted in specific threads and therefore I don't have that feeling of betrayal and manipulation that many members may have, although I've read the history and the unfair treatment of members was disgusting and yet still it goes on.

I am sure there are significant reasons for the behavior of admin staff that relate to their contact with Susans team whereby the staff endeavor to control the content of the members posts and actions with an iron hand and attempt to make sure all posts are positive, whether they be realistic or not. This almost always results in an outcry and deletions of posts, ill feeling and continued reduction of active members, which of course defeats the purpose of the admins control in the first place! Their attempts to create a Happy Susaland are doomed by their methods, and a Happy Susaland will never exist because not all goes smoothly in anyone's life, including Susans.

These issues are discussed in (usually) an adult manner here. We also freely discuss Susans music, her personality, her background, her activities and how she may be affected at any one time by any given situation be it positive or negative. We do not criticize her - we love her as much as one can 'love' someone you do not know personally or have a real one on one relationship with. We find her endearing, brave, puzzling, we worry about her sometimes and celebrate her many achievements and triumphs. We put a lot of consideration into our posts about Susan and many of us have a lot to say and there is a free exchange of ideas and information. We try not to make assumptions but sometimes they do creep in and we generally chastise each other if we feel a member has gone too far, as has happened on occasion. Very rarely does DJG intervene.

I've written this post to explain my reasons for being a member of this site and to explain what I perceive really goes on here, as opposed to perceptions that all we do is insult and laugh at members of other sites, from the viewpoint of someone who I hope is a reasonable and fair minded person. People have a lot of misconceptions about us but ultimately we are just people who are fans of Susan and her music and who are part of a forum where we can obtain information about her and discuss her - which is the purpose of a forum after all.

BREAKING NEWS!

It appears that SBFII have just admitted that freedom of speech is not acceptable there. They suggest you join another site if you want such luxuries! So, come on in!

Thank you Emmylou for your balanced assessment - and let's go back inside for some more laughs and interesting discussions!!!

---

The hallmark of a well-managed organization is not the absence of problems, but whether or not problems are effectively resolved.
- Steve Ventura

Earn the right to be heard by listening to others. Seek to understand a situation before making judgments about it.
- John Maxwell

Nicely said, Tonnie and Emmylou.

If you feel this way......

.

According to a moderator, they do not allow members to be ridiculed or bullied!! It depends who the member is. Many from this site were ridiculed, harassed, AND bullied! I have given examples.

One thing that most members of this site recognize is the two-fold duty of fans: praising and promoting good performances in public or on albums, and giving feedback on what doesn't sound or look good to us. Susan has 3 companies now, and as businesses they need to follow the old rule: "If you like our product or service, tell your friends; if you don't, tell us".

Fans who have seen the musical multiple times have noticed changes from one performance to another. Why does that happen? Because they got feedback from the audience on what works better and what doesn't, and they respond to that feedback.

When Susan does not perform well, as occurred at DWTS, we here feel very bad about it. But we don't try to pretend it was a great performance. If people who aren't fans see posts like that, they may think that's the best Susan can do and then decide her album isn't worth buying. In fact, we've seen comments to that effect. If we can convey that this was an unfortunate exception to her usual brilliant performances, and point out where she can be heard singing at her best, we may be able to prevent her from being written off as over-hyped and mediocre.

The same goes for criticism of her team. Their paychecks depend on her success, so they need to be concerned about how they do their job as well. We here have been very critical of their promotional efforts in the past, but we see they have improved this year. So has Susan's voice.

Prohibiting feedback is foolish. SBFII is supposedly owned by the fans, not the admins and moderators. Its non-profit structure was set up to promote fan involvement, not to stifle and restrict it. It continues to hemorrhage members because it has abandoned its original purpose and any pretense of objective and fair treatment of all members.

If Susan's team wants a cheerleading squad that will cheer for a fumbled ball as much as if it were a goal, they have that in SBFII. If they want realistic and honest feedback from fans who love Susan and want her to succeed, they'll have to look at and communicate with other sites, including this one..

To all you at SBFII---read the post above. That is who your administration forced to leave. Dyebat had the love of the fans, and their TRUE interests at heart. Just imagine what would have been if she was not driven away. It is very important for mgmt, the record company, and even Susan to get REAL input from the fans.

dyebat wrote:

One thing that most members of this site recognize is the two-fold duty of fans: praising and promoting good performances in public or on albums, and giving feedback on what doesn't sound or look good to us. Susan has 3 companies now, and as businesses they need to follow the old rule: "If you like our product or service, tell your friends; if you don't, tell us".

Fans who have seen the musical multiple times have noticed changes from one performance to another. Why does that happen? Because they got feedback from the audience on what works better and what doesn't, and they respond to that feedback.

When Susan does not perform well, as occurred at DWTS, we here feel very bad about it. But we don't try to pretend it was a great performance. If people who aren't fans see posts like that, they may think that's the best Susan can do and then decide her album isn't worth buying. In fact, we've seen comments to that effect. If we can convey that this was an unfortunate exception to her usual brilliant performances, and point out where she can be heard singing at her best, we may be able to prevent her from being written off as over-hyped and mediocre.

The same goes for criticism of her team. Their paychecks depend on her success, so they need to be concerned about how they do their job as well. We here have been very critical of their promotional efforts in the past, but we see they have improved this year. So has Susan's voice.

Prohibiting feedback is foolish. SBFII is supposedly owned by the fans, not the admins and moderators. Its non-profit structure was set up to promote fan involvement, not to stifle and restrict it. It continues to hemorrhage members because it has abandoned its original purpose and any pretense of objective and fair treatment of all members.

If Susan's team wants a cheerleading squad that will cheer for a fumbled ball as much as if it were a goal, they have that in SBFII. If they want realistic and honest feedback from fans who love Susan and want her to succeed, they'll have to look at and communicate with other sites, including this one..

Dyebat, you stated your post honest and insightful. I have a feeling though that it might fall on dead ears with some people. I like that you do not critique but give a fair assessment . Thank you ..

Also Emmylou's post was thoughtful and also Tonnie's. Thank you to both ....

fudgemeister wrote:

To all you at SBFII---read the post above. That is who your administration forced to leave. Dyebat had the love of the fans, and their TRUE interests at heart. Just imagine what would have been if she was not driven away. It is very important for mgmt, the record company, and even Susan to get REAL input from the fans.

Fudge those were dark days when Dyebat was used and after that discarded. A shameful time indeed..

Dyebat is one wise lady......read what she says and think it through, read it again if need be.....

In the end, what kind of fan responses will benefit an artist? More specifically, in this instance, Susan Boyle?

BTW, our sandbox is...........the whole site. And guess what? It is open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and is never cleaned up or thrown away. And talk about "lightly moderated" ( ). You ain't seen lightly moderated!!

fudgemeister wrote:

To all you at SBFII---read the post above. That is who your administration forced to leave. Dyebat had the love of the fans, and their TRUE interests at heart. Just imagine what would have been if she was not driven away. It is very important for mgmt, the record company, and even Susan to get REAL input from the fans.

I have never posted on this guest forum, mainly because I believed that it can be used to make this site look ridiculous- but, it is not. The reason I read or even post here can be seen here in the Post Emmy Lou made, earlier in her time zone, which is in OZ
I am actually watching tv at the moment, but I looked for "new posts" here just now. That is the way this forum runs, as it is not fancy, nor does not have any ads etc---and never has. I joined here when I was banned from the forum Pauls site in October of 2009, because I was so addicted to susan, i could not STAND a week off. I was banned for saying Gerry Boyle should not talk bad about his sister. Well, I must say, that group who banned me from there in Oct. 2009 are long gone.
I am writing on the Guest Forum here for the first time IN THREE YEARS. WHY?
Because I loved this post by Dyebat---- a true blue SUSAN FAN from DAY one. And in support of the other great post made here today ( on this guest forum too!) By emmy lou.!!! Telling how come we post here, and it is not a mean and bad place at all.
You GO GIRLS-- we love Miss Boyle. No matter WHAT FORUM we may post on-- that is the most important thing of all!!!

xxxxx

Dyebat: as usual, succinct, pertinent and you hit that nail right on the head. Three cheers!!!